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I was amazed and amused that so much happened before the Clutch ship even landed, given that Neogenesis ended with it hovering above the driveway where it was about to set down.
me too. But I also like it very much that the short story with Daav, Aeliana and Kareen realy did fit in.
Yes, that was a neat trick.
I was surprised too, though I did enjoy all the lead up. Had we not already known from the end of Neogenesis what was going on, it would have been a nice bit of suspense too. But the authors (or the publisher!) must have decided “enough is enough” for Neogenesis.
Aiiee! *dance of joy* [that’s my review!]
I do wonder if Kezzi stayed. I think/hope so?
In particular: I loved the AI Assembly; the Tree and the Emissary; Yulie’s story line. In future, I’m eager to see the Yxtrang ambassador on Surebleak! He’s another favorite, along with his Rifle.
Hugs and kitty-nose-boops,
Everything what Elf says…
I too wondered if Kezzie stayed or went from Liad…
Good news, Kezzi stayed! 🙂
See: The Gate that Locks the Tree (Adventures in Liaden Universe #30)
I really loved it. So many threads coming togetherness such a satisfying way. I must admit that I teared up a few times. Loved the cats! However I’m still wondering about the Xstrang ambassador and hoping we’ll see how that thread reaches its conclusion.
There I was on page 410 with only 5 pages left and “OH MY GOHD!!!”
Oh thank heaven, this editions thinks I have another 25 pages to read.
Also everything Elf said. I loved this book I had a few tears lots of smiles. The way all the threads are being woven together is wonderful. I am going to have to re-read at a slower pace especially the part about the DOI I did not really grasp who was doing what to whom. I think I need to refresh the names of the 6 from Surebleak and then were the scouts the Liaden scouts or Surebleak scouts. I am a little at sea it’s as tho I skipped a chapter LOL I will go back
I have now discovered my confusion – I somehow skipped reading the first 3 chapters LOL
I was glad to see that my long suspected (long as in since Crystal Dragon long) thought that DoI was Enemy based was correct. Obviously not targeted at the new universe as such, but the Work adapted itself as needed.
Great read. Loved the phrase (hope I got it right) A Clutch turtle, a Liaden, and Terran went into a bar… Also still wondering about the YXTRANG ambassador – here’s a thought could part of that ‘old’ fleet revert to the troop.
Just read it and am a little bemused about who ordered the incidents at the end on Surebleak (which faction of the DOI.) may have read ittoo fast, will reread more slowly this weekend. Always appreciate and treasure these books..thank you!
I figured those had to have been already ordered by the old commander before the change of regime took place.
All that tech and the AI’s from the old universe and no Uncle johnny on the spot???
Loved the book and the action on so many fronts. Theo is being forced to mature and she’s wearing it well. I’m already looking forward to the next book and am sure the authors just love that when ATL isn’t officially out yet.
I do have one concern and wonder if I missed some clues. Did Nelirikk survive the attack on the Road Boss’s office ? Miri did call out his name after she’d been attacked and injured in the alley but I didn’t see any mention of him after that.
Add a :-> or ;-> at the end of the first paragraph. I hope these come through as the other grin form didn’t !
Nelirikk found her in the alley first I believe.
I found this in “The Way Between”
“Captain!” a big voice shouted, and there were other voices, too, and a siren, closing. “Captain!”“Nelirikk,” Miri whispered in his ear,
Thank you both for these catches that I missed on my hurried way through. Nelirikk didn’t show up as part of Miri’s healing scenes and I missed any further references there might have been.
I’m doing the slower read now and seeing things I *must* have read on the first pass but don’t remember.
I noticed just a few typos.
I wondered about Nelirikk, too. He did call Miri’s name after she was shot, so I assumed he survived, but in the epilogue, it was Diglon who played chauffeur to yo’Lanna’s party. So…?
I also wonder if Kezzi boarded the ship with Luthia, or stayed behind with Droi, Udari, Memit, Rafin, etc. I suspect she did go with Luthia, out of loyalty. Too bad…I liked her escapades with Syl Vor. I also suspect we will run into that Bedel ship again, especially given the questionable captain.
And how perfect, that Rys is now the headman. He truly has a new clan!
Clever, how it came to pass that Bechimo and crew found themselves in the right place at the right time when THE ASSEMBLY showed up in Surebleak outer space.
The DOI ran on old Sherieka tech. No surprise there, but I’d like to know who was the first human instigator of DOI in this Liaden universe. Maybe the upcoming sequel to Trade Secret will offer a clue. I still think Lyre Institute uses a lot of similar tech and methods.
Glad to see Theo and Bechimo maturing. Loved all scenes with Stost and Chernak. And Hevelin. And Tree. And Clutch.
“I am called, for the purpose of this mission, Emissary Twelve.” .. We never got a name, which seems contrary to Clutch culture.
TerraTrade rep Kasveini demanded KORVAL HIMSELF. Lol! Great scene! She looked, he thought, a little pale. She might even benefit from a cup of tea. Sadly, Korval Himself did not offer cups of tea to upstart Terrans who demanded that he justify clan business to them….Team Leader Kasveini was looking markedly unwell. Korval Himself naturally had no sympathy, though the Road Boss might have expressed concern.
Well, now my curiosity is piqued. What did bring Portmaster Liu to Surebleak???
I hope Shan comes home soon. I miss his interactions with the clan.
I guess we’ll be seeing Yxtrang Ambassador Vepal in a future sequel or short story.
The DOI came to an end. What about agents still out on missions?
Clutch names seem to be descriptive – so Emissary Twelve might have more meaning that it looks at first glance. I took it to mean that this mission is the raison d’être for Emissary Twelve and properly a Life work. She is only just beginning to see what this Mission all includes – like making port rules for Clutch visits.
Yes me to. But wait, wasn’t there some talk between day – and night port masters when Pat Rin and the Counsil of Bosses went to port – way back when Plan B was active? But I don’t remember if the reasons of coming to Surebleak got mentioned.
Val Con believed it to take quite a long time to shut down the Department. And even with the help of the Scouts (note it is just the Scouts, not the Liaden Scouts) this might take years or more properly even decades. How does on shut down the 3 remaining Commander-Down-Load Points? That assumes that the 1 Down-Load Point has been shut down by Aberthaz Ferry’ suicide.
I’m afraid I don’t understand it. Can someone explain? Why did Aberthaz Ferry take the Commander with him? And why did he never stray form the topic of Perfection? Is perfection only reachable in death? In any death or must it be a special kind of death? Or was this something else?
Is Aberthaz Ferry a hero or some kind of double agent? Did he ally with DoI in order to find the down-load-point? Or did he run into a trap?
Regarding Aberthaz Ferry (which I’ll shorten to Ferry here, for ease): Ferry was dying due to rotting tile racks, and he was losing what remained of his logic/sanity–much like the others from the old universe, which recall: have 20 to 100 years left to them, and then the planned obsolescence. But Ferry was still sane enough, at the last.
Ferry kept to his original task from the Old Universe: to destroy those Old Tech items inimical to life, by design of the Enemy. He told Bechimo that he would, as his last act, destroy the Recruiting Station (I take it this is the DOI Commander Download/Quaternary Transfer Point), and also remove the Commander herself from the board.
Thus, Ferry picked up the (somewhat delusional/error-ridden) Commander, and enticed her with an offer of Perfection. All that talk about Perfection was to lull her, so that Ferry could take care of business.
I will note: I was kind of confused about the “crystal fortress” Ferry jumped into–to destroy it–and I worried that was Tinsori Light; but I think it was in fact the Recruiting Station.
Ferry’s death is rather sad, even in victory–I do wonder if Signeur Veeoni could have replaced his rotting tiles with the newly-manufactured sets she invented. Perhaps she can help some of the others?
I hope this helps?
yes, that is what ferry tells Bechimo, but I’m not sure that there isn’t some deper game hidden there. Especially since ferry seems to be the first AI and old technolgy that was in DoI hands.
And yes, the cristal fortress description is so special, that I believe it would have been mentioned by our “3 of 6” (Rys and his companions) when they went to download the commander.
And in the last describtions of the delusional commander she seems so “harmless” that it doesn’t seem necessary to remove her before Rys and company appear? Or do I miss something there?
Hey Othin: Yay, discussion! We shall reach consensus! 🙂
I agree, there’s a lot of nuance in Liaden works, so, I wouldn’t be surprised to be wrong. But As for those of the Assembly that did the work of the DOI, I think they weren’t “twisted” like the biologics were–they did the work of the DOI because they were bored, in essence; work gave meaning. So I do think Ferry was its own person, free, and it went to dispose of the Commander/the Recruiting Station as its last act.
As to the Commander–the Healers/Dramliza were keeping tight herd on her, so mostly harmless, yep. As to Ferry taking care of her, I think that was a matter of timing, and the fact that Ferry was not aware of The Six and their plans to dismantle DOI. So by the time Claidyne & Rys got to Secondary Headquarters, Ferry had picked her up and they were off to seek glory/perfection. At least, that’s what I got out of it.
~Cat smiles, all around! ~e
@Elf and Othin: RE: Perfection
Neither of you mention how “perfection” as a concept is itself the dead Old (sheriekas) Universe that Cantra and others jumped out of. Could Ferry have somehow been able to jump back into that universe, thereby having not lied to the Commander about achieving perfection, but with the full understanding that perfection was going to be equivalent to annihilation?
Ah, no? Ferry said he’d been hunting the Light, but he lacked the ability to fold space or travel to other universes–he’s referring to how Tinsori Light was, sometimes, in the Old Universe for long periods between “customers”.
I’ve always thought of Perfection as a lie, frankly. It’s the hook for the Sheriekas to sway others to their cause, but they alone believe themselves to be “perfected.” For organic life, at the end of that Old Universe, well… Perfection meant death. So, you know, Ferry gave the Commander exactly what the Sheriekas promised to all organic life, in a way.
Someone shoud have introduced Aberathy Ferry to the Uncle or better to Seignour Veoini (probably spelled that wrong) who could maybe make new frames for the old intelligences. Perhaps that’s where Tinsori Light aka Tocohol will find most business. Shan to set up the ‘trade’
Thanks, Othin! You make some great points. Maybe Emissary Twelve has only begun to grow a name. And I guess I missed the bit where Val Con said it would take a long time to shut down DOI. Yes, that works fine, then.
As for Ferry, I agree with Elf, below. She (he?) was a “brave little toaster” serving the Troop in the old world, thus speaking Old Yxtrang language, and thus Stost knew of him / her. Her last valiant act was to kill the Commander — who was not harmless but rather a stone-cold killer bent on the destruction of an entire clan (Korval) and the bombing of an entire planet — and to destroy the malignant recruiting station, via a suicidal jump. I thought it was a nice touch, to see the Yxtrang (Ferry AI Troop) as heroic again, so many centuries after dutiful Jela, Wellick, etc.
Regarding Val Con saying it would take a long time to shut down DOI: He didn’t know that Shan healing Tarona Rusk would be a crucial act which would facilitate the internal revolt which would bring the end of the DOI.
I think that there was a line about two Luthia’s staying behind. Droi was one & my assumption that Kezzi was the other. After all she didn’t want to leave her dog behind.
“The DOI ran on old Sherieka tech. No surprise there, but I’d like to know who was the first human instigator of DOI in this Liaden universe. Maybe the upcoming sequel to Trade Secret will offer a clue. I still think Lyre Institute uses a lot of similar tech and methods.”
Wasn’t it mentioned in a previous book that the Lyre Institute is the successor to the Tanjalyr (sp) Institute that Cantra “graduated” – in a manner of speaking – from ?
I come down on the Kezzi stayed on Surebleak side. Between losing her dog, and a life with way more choices I’m thinking she opted to stay. Then there’s Syl Vor’s friendship. That came about somewhat because she was the youngest of the on-planet Bedel. Silvain has to go but given how new Luthia’s are chosen on the Ship she might have wanted to spare Kezzi from a process with no guarantees. Would the Surebleak Bedel remain a ‘tribe’ on the Ship or become Bedel of the Ship ?
Karen2 — Yes, it’s been stated in Dragon in Exile that Lyre is possibly/probably the new name for Tanjalyre, but I think Tanjalyre could have been built on Sherieka Tech in Old Universe. Very similar devices, psychopathies, and methods.
As for Kezzi, I hope you’re right!
So did you submit typos to Sharon? I’m such a compulsive editor that I did send her some, not realizing that her crew of “Mighty Tyop Hunters” actually get a mention in the final printing.
I believe Kezzi stays. Silain says as much to Kareem. ““One I trained myself,” Silain assured her. “She is very strong, and her Sight is sharp. But she is young. Until she outgrows that fault, she will from time to time need you.”
That surely would be Droi.
This could refere to Droi as well as to Kezzi. Properly it fits Droi better than Kezzi, since we have never seen Lady Kareen meeting Kezzi.
I’m also wondering about Kezzie. Quote above told me Kezzie would stay, then Droi was Luthia to those who stayed. So Kezzie’s location is unknown. I’m in agreement with those who’ve already commented. Also concerned about Anthora and RenZel. How have they been affected by their adventures. They’ve been at Healers Hall a long time. L
Kezzi’s location is told on purpose. The authors might noch have decided jet on when and how the Ship Bedel will come into play again. So Kezzi’s location gives options – depending weather it is the Sintia-Kezzi or the Sil Vor-Kezzi connetion they want to use.
@Othin: Yes, that may be so about keeping Kezzi’s location uncertain. Indefinite plot threads allow for more flexibility and thus creativity going forward. That’s assuming the authors intended to be obscure on that point and I didn’t miss some key sentences.
Othin, remind me what the Sintia-Kezzi connection is?
IMHO Bechimo needs, at some point, a Trader on board.
Yes, but hasn’t Theo been trained as a Trader, herself?
Theo is not a trader, nor trained as a trader. Her secondary training was entirely pilot-related at Anglinden Academy [sp, sorry]. She only went a “trading loop” by Shan’s suggestion as a… probationary? period, to help Bechimo get used to people, too, I think; Shan suggested this loop, and contracted Theo, as a way to keep a “hook” on her, so she’d come back to Korval now and then. Sorry again! That’s a lot of words to say: Nope.
She notes in this book that she probably should look into getting a trader on-board; that’s before she’s sent by contract to the Light.
Hope this helps!
My favorite part *might* be all the cats, and especially that all the cats are an active ingredient of necessary healing towards the end!
Threads are coming together even as many others have been left hanging for future books or stories. Thankfully we know that there are plans for at least 5 more books so for our sake and theirs, we pray the authors remain healthy and happy.
You mentioned tyops…er, typos…above, so I hope you noted them and can send your list to Sharon (she requests them in a post on her blog. BUT only through Monday, 9/2).
Ed8r — I guess I’m too late for that typo deadline, but there weren’t very many, and doubtless someone else caught them.
No, no, not too late…yet. I gave the wrong date! The deadline is today at 6:00 Pacific Time.
IN the chapter in which the Clutch ship has just landed in the driveway, Miri has this reflection on its size:
“It sat, steaming gently, on the driveway. Not much bigger, Miri thought, than the forty-eight-seat touring bus mothballed in the garage.”
I thought I clearly remembered that the forty-eight-seat touring bus drove away with its passengers, startled but intact, after the Tree threw a branch at it.
Does anyone recall the forty-eight-seat touring bus being mentioned again? How did it end up in Jelaza Kazone’s garage? Or is it there at Jelaza Kazone? Perhaps in a garage in the city, or at the Port?
I am bumfuzzled.
I had a momentary question about this in my mind also. I don’t think we’ve been told anything about Korval claiming the bus/?
@Passenger Bus — I think the bus has been with Korval since before the move from Liad. The wealthiest clan on Liad would surely have their own bus. Lol. But such a big bus for such a small clan. Perhaps there’s a short story there.
@Trader for Bechimo — if Theo is the trader for Bechimo, she could use some more training, I’m thinking. If she mostly trades with other AI smart ships, that’s a whole new game. So either way…
Theo thought about the need for a trader in Dragon in Exile
I am hoping for, Padi, or a Tiazan, or a Jonz from Due diligence family.
Love the accrual of crew by Bechimo et al over several books.
Veeoni (sp.) fraction replacements for the ‘old-tech’ ships extant ?
RE: Veeoni’s work. I believe she’d have to create what the Old Tech needed, as she did for Tinsori Light, i.e., it would have to be designed for each, but she had figured out *how* to create them.
There are so many little bits that either tickled my funny bone, or caught my attention…that is in addition to the stand out (IMNSHO) noted above by gareth griffiths on Aug 29.
So, here’s another one, which appears in the Portmaster’s thoughts about Theo, but is a description of how Pat Rin handles his annoyance: “a toxic increase in irony levels”…ha! Toxic, indeed!
The DOI has been the antagonist since Agent of Change. The Lyre Institute is poised to take the role. With their interest in Tinsori Light, Bechimo and Spiral Dance with its military armament will be on the front.
Surebleak has made great strides with governance, education, climate adjustment. Will there be a forest of trees in the Bedel settlement?
What will the partnership with Uncle look like?
When will Joyita get a form factor as nice as Toohl has?
How about those personalitites in the library on Bechimo?
Will the trader to come on Bechimo work with the Carresens?
Will Hevelin go into the remastering unit on Bechimo?
The goals of the Lyre Institute seem to be manipulation and domination, rather than the “perfection” to be achieved by total annihilation of all life. It needs to be dismantled, not left to itself as it seems it has been for a thousand years.
By “forest of trees” I presume you mean a forest of sussdriad/?
Hevelin in the remastering unit? Whatever for?
If Hevelin doesn‘t recover from his wounds, but presumably the tree will heal him?
Yes, those Trees.
Got it . . . yes, I assumed from the Tree’s request to place Hevelin at its base, that probably its pods will eventually restore Hevelin to his former murbling self.
I somehow understood Chafurma to mean a time of people coming together. But instead it’s a time where the Bedel collect (gather) artefacts. Hm, that makes much more sense. And Lady Kareen’s question if what the Bedel leave behind is as important as what they take with them – that’s interesting.
I somehow don’t believe that those Bedel staying on Surebleak will suffer the fate that Alosha feared for the Bedel when he believed the ship to be lost to them. Dori’s group won’t dissolve into the main Surebleak population, no matter if one counts 2 or 20 generations.
Othin, you mean Droi, right?
The Bedel won’t dissolve into the Surebleak population, per se, but I’m betting they join Korval eventually. The Elder Tree is already working on expanding Korval by granting Yulie Shaper first pods and then a branch of itself, and now Yulie will be Bedel-by-marriage. And the new headman, Rys, has already consumed pods from the ELder Tree and is also brother to Val Con. Isn’t all this leading inexorably to the Bedel joining with Korval?
Hi Ed8r, that was always a clear properbilty since Silver found a sister 🙂 and yes I keep misreading names to make them more familiar. So Droi not Dori. This “marriage” of the Surelbeak Bedel and Korval sets up expert pilots in to be honorbound to help the ship Bedel when they meet their problem again.
Good point! I was trying to think how the Bedel ship might be tied in again later, and I think you’ve got it!
Isn’t Uncle involved with the Bedel too? I think his “sister” said something about them being his people.
What about this tea “Bitter Truth”? Is this truly tea?
Do we assume “Morning Sunrise” is a true “tea” (Camellia sinensis)? Or is it an herbal tea? Has anyone asked the authors what their intention is?
And while we’re on the topic (more or less) what about the “maize buttons”? Obviously they’re made of corn…and from the description, they’re made of corn meal. But are they based on something people bake in the RW? If so, what are they called in English, if it can be told?
Chronologically, I believe, the tea “Morning Sunrise” is first mentioned in Certain Symmetry when Pat Rin has to balance Fal Den ter’Antod’s debt book. And yes, I do think it is a true tea.
In Real Life there are several different teas called Morning Sunrise.
One of them is flavored black tea, tasting of quince and wild blackthorn.
Ingredients: black tea, aroma, red rosebuds, rose petals, safflower flowers.
Another is the English breakfast tea Morning Sunrise No. 135, a blend of Assam, Ceylon und Kenia tea.
And Bitter Truth is a cocktail.
Did you have an additional comment?
Other people I’d like to see or hear about
Beba the rug seller from Persistence
Alys Tiazan from Plan B
Shidi and Mik yos’Galan
This is some of the overflow from my re-reading, I guess.
My list goes Beba, Alys, Sinit (Delm Mizel), Gordon Arbuthnot,Pirro Velez and his two wifes and his family. (Ok, there are poperly a lot more, I could put on this list, since I’d like to here about almost every one who has come by so far)
There is a long, long list we could make!
Shindi and Mik should be of the age to be getting into things,
Double trouble twins, yowza !
The tea mentioned in Scout’s Progress is Joyful Sunrise.
I also liked Grey Pearl alluding to Earl Grey.
My understanding is that now Tinsori Light will be able to move through space. Does that match the understanding of other fellow travellers?
The old Tinsori light could flip between universes, not convinced the new Tocohol light inherited all the capabilities (esp given the old universe probably doesn’t exist or is at least now unreachable, philosophers can argue if that’s the same or not) – we’ll have to wait and see.
@Thomas: I don’t remember that from Neogenesis; I’d have to go back and read it again, but I was left only with the impression that it could now sit still where it was supposed to be in our universe.
that matches mine. After Uncle’s sister Seignur Veeoni build the tiles to work in tandem with the craniums, Tinsory Light regains the capacity and computing power to move (and or fold time and space as Aberthaz Ferry suggests). But that has still to be tested and is – right now – only known to the Uncle, Veeoni, properly Tocohl Lorlin and Mentor Tollance Berik-Jones (and maybe some of the uncle’s people) and those who were told by Aberthaz Ferry, Veeoni or our two Stronglines. So it is still a secret more or less.
Thanks, Othin. Can you point me to the chapter that suggests this to be the case? Hmm…maybe next year’s book Trader’s Leap will take us back to Tinsori and we’ll find out.
Chapter – I would have to look this up. But when Veeoni suggests the tiles rack to Tocohl I think she promises that this will give the Light back the ability to move. And the Stronglines as well as our original Light Keeper tell that the Light suddenly appeared where a space station used to be. So that’s an ability to move. So this ability is mentioned in several stories from different viewpoints.
Yes, but that sudden appearance could be from jumping back and forth between two universes through the “crack” that has now been sealed.
It would be critical for Tinsori Light to be able to change locations. Good defensive strategy re: Lyre Institute, good for business with the Free Ships, and gives multiple plot possibilities.
Would like to know more about the Uncle’s relationship to the Bedel. If he set them in motion is he also a recipient of the things and knowledge they gather?
I suspect he is, but don’t know whether we’ll ever be shown the actual mechanics of the process.
The Light was stationed over a planet in the old universe.
It should at least have station keeping drives.
Veeoni will know for sure.
That’s true. Maybe it will want to be stationed in orbit again.
Early on, as Theo is on her way in response to the Portmaster’s call, the Portmaster is thinking about her as being attached to: a family that valued their ships more than the lives of their children. Is this true? I can’t think of an example . . . have we seen this demonstrated anywhere? Or is it just an effective bit of hyperbole?
I chalked the remark up to ignorance combined with rumor.
All in all the port master seems to be mostly level-headed.
CHILDREN by age (Padi & Quin, are young adults)
Shindi & Mik
Maysil (Rys & Droi being sibs of Val Con & Miri)
Anthora & Ren Zel’s daughter to be.
Priscilla and Shan’s child to be.
A horde of hellions, all prone to trouble.
Another tidbit I liked:
During Theo’s meeting with the Portmaster, “Captain Waitley’s frown got frownier.” Perfect.
Theo and Bechimo are having a discussion in bond space, and she starts thinking about Val Con’s field judgment regarding Complex Logics: Val Con had wanted a future where AIs were fully integrated, and when the chance had come past him, he grabbed it. Which led to wondering…why did Val Con want that future? And that wasn’t comfortable thinking at all.
Why isn’t it comfortable thinking for Theo? What about it made it uncomfortable? Surely she knew that there were other “smartships” who deserved to be recognized? And she knew about Jeeves, right? So why wasn’t it comfortable thinking for Theo?
She wasn’t sure of enough of Val Con’s motives, perhaps.
Yes, but why? Does she suspect him of nefarious motives? Is she thinking of some secret agenda that she would not approve of? We’re not given any hints, are we?
If you review the party scene in Neogenisis you will see that Val Con
has many layers in his motivation.
Theo was ‘uncomfortable’ perhaps because she couldn’t fully understand a Scout Commanders thinking process and reconciling it with her own take on the AI situation.
Would you please direct me to the chapter of you quote ?
Many chapters have repeated titles. If you are using electronic version try chapter title Bechimo, at loc 1037.
The saying is: ‘Korval is ships’
The question is: Can smartships become part of Korval ?
Interesting thought Terry. We know the Tree is reaching out to draw others into Korval, but smartships cannot partake of the Tree, so they would have to be joined purely out of contract. Seems as though, if they’ve been judged able to be a signatory in a contract, that they could become part of the clan/?
Ed8r Thanx for the feedback.
Good point about partaking of the TreeCan/does the tree sense Bechimo, perhaps thru Theo ?
Will it be Clan of the Tree or Clans or Tribe.?
I speculate Clans Korval and Bedel et al for now.
Might Bechimo be considered an associate member via his bond to Theo ?
I’m horribly late to respond, but I was just perusing this thread again! So much joy in re-reading!
As for The Tree and Bechimo: I think Jelaza Kazone might view Bechimo as one of its dragons? I recall that Val Con and Miri saw a silver dragon when they took off from Surebleak as they sat tree-court. That silver dragon could be Theo, or Bechimo, or Bechimo/Theo lol!
However, I would suggest that Tree Junior might also have a proprietary interest in both, too. Since Bechimo is going to Tinsori Light, which we know is rather large and has greenhouses (among other oddities)… perhaps Junior will disembark to build its own network of dragons/relatives and friends on-station. As Stost mentioned, Tree Junior is going to have to move off ship sooner rather than later…
At Surebleak Port, Scout Headquarters we learn the names Aelliana and Daav have chosen for their new personas: Daaneka tey’Doshi and Kor Vid yos’Phelium. Have we heard of any “tey”s before this? What does it dignify?
I don’t recognize the pronunciation of Aelliana’s new given name, but Daav’s is pronounced like a word in our world: corvid, which is the family of birds that includes crows , ravens, and jays…a very smart omnivorous type of bird. In fact, I’ve been told that corvids have been claimed to be as intelligent as horses!
*signify (not dignify)
Is the Syndicate mentioned in the Terra Trade final report
While the Bechimo crew is cleaning up and claiming salvage in the Surebleak Orbital Influence Zone, Clarence make maize buttons. Theo thinks about the qualities that lead her to enjoy them: slightly moist yellow interior, the gritty texture of the properly ground meal . . . and of course, butter.
What I want to know is…do the authors have a particular RW food in mind? Is this what the Southern US would call cornpone? There is some disagreement about the ingredients of this dish, sometimes made in cast iron pans with corn-ear shapes…and the lack of agreement has led to a sort of continuum between “cornpone” and “cornbread,” with no one really knowing where to draw the line. The only must-have ingredients for cornpone are corn meal (not the more finely ground masa flour) and water. From there, the additions vary greatly through the continuum, adding salt, fat, wheat flour, milk, and sugar. Apparently during the American Civil War, “The soldiers (of both sides) made do with cornmeal, water and grease from bacon or salt pork to make a thick batter, which they fried in a pan over a campfire.”
With all these variations, I’d like to ask Sharon and Steve for their recipe!
Another tidbit I liked, this one said by Udari to Droi, about why he didn’t want to leave Surebleak to go with the Bedel ship:
“I like the way the snow kisses my face, as if we are old and comfortable friends.”
Miri observes that Emissary Twelve is wearing garment “cut right off the bolt f all-weather cloth down in the basement.”
At first it seems to make sense that Korval would have whole bolts of unused fabric in their storage. But then the question occurs: what is the distinction in this Universe of what is still manufactured and what is 3-D printed? Rugs, carpets, and fabrics still seem to be manufactured and available for sale or trade. But then why are other things 3-D printed?
Interesting question Kareen asks of Silain:
“Does the ship deliberately seed worlds with Bedel genes?” Silain’s only answer is “It may be, and it may not be,” and she then proceeds to state “the one you took to guest from me…I thought to put the question there, but then I thought—No. I do not wish to know these things.”
The (rude) guest, of course, had been Seignur Veeoni.
I wonder whether we’ll ever find out more definitely the answer to that question? Or are we—like Silain—expected to be satisfied with not knowing these things?
I thought so too. And not only because Kareen asked it. (The younger Kareen in Mouse and Dragon would never have done it.)
Since the clutch repair effort will “interface with several delms of Korval”
Will Korval’s Clan House undergo partial modification to accommodate Clutch kin
and other Clutch needing to interface with Korval ?
I’m not sure. Didn’t she say also that they would need to establish a base? I assumed the clutch would want to find there own space on the planet.
Yulie Shaper mentions to the Bedel (Udari?) that a second food production site was chosen for elsewhere on Surebleak. It doesn’t have equipment set up though or other preparation done. It might be similar to Yulie’s place with a natural cave system below it. That would make it suitable for a Clutch base especially if it’s near the project area.
The hardcover of ATL is coming out soon. Will a second discussion list be set up or will it continue on this one ? Anyone know how it’s been done with past books ?
But the second food production site was on the island that Shan bought, wasn’t it? My impression was the the Clutch would want to find their own site, away from the humans, but we’ll see—sometime in the next few years.;(
The only site I’ve found is a blog called “Reading Liad,” which can be found at this URL: https://pdprojects.info/liadread/
The blog not any kind of “official” discussion, but there are several of us that you’ve also seen posting here.
Thanks, Ed8r. I’ll have to do some rereads other than AtL – it’s become a comfort read.
Wherever the Clutch tech group ends up there should be a Tree relatively close for communing. I think Twelve will need frequent Tree-time.
Very good point, although I’m sure they’d always be welcome to visit!
I really enjoyed how Theo joined the clan by saying “I do” alluding to marrying into the Clan.
This tidbit got me musing on some collateral lines.
Will Theo form her own Waitley line ala Bel Tarden.
I believe it unlikely she will change her surname to yos’Phelium.
She ‘might’ choose Waitley-yos’Phelium thus honoring both her parents and Clan
I wonder if we’ll see that future?
Question for other readers who see this:
When Caz Dor is explaining himself—and what happened on Jenarian Station—to Rys Lin, he speaks of those who “could not be healed,” apparently those who were evil in and of themselves or who had embraced the evil so thoroughly that there was no separating them from it. He says: Those whom I could not heal…those who placed in danger the lives which could be saved—my partner would have said they were an unacceptable risk.
Does this explain why we do not see his partner, Hosilee? Was she one of those he had to . . . eliminate?
Regarding Caz Dor’s partner: He said that Hosilee’s last act, for which she gave her life*, was to prevent the Commander from personally investigating the event that released the Healers and lesser dramliza from the Department’s control (i.e., Shan’s Healing of Tarona Rusk, which dropped everyone so leashed in their tracks en masse). Further, she influenced the Commander to delegate the task to the Unit Head (Tarona Rusk herself, incidentally).
Her action ensured this pivotal event would pass beneath the Commander’s notice, likely saving the lives which had been freed from control, and also allowed the Healers and Dramliza to work against the Department from within. Hosilee trusted Tarona Rusk to work to save those who had been leashed to her.
Thus, Caz Dor has been honoring the intent behind Hosilee’s last act: healing others as he can, eliminating certain dangerous individuals (those who embraced the the Department’s depravities by nature, as you say), and keeping a rotating watch on the Commander to prevent her from triggering the self-destruct protocols, which would kill everyone still ensnared by the Department (aka “disbanding the Department”).
*I’d note that it’s not explicit in text as to how or why Hosilee died. Perhaps she used her remaining energy to divert the commander rather than heal herself in the aftershock of being freed?
Thanks, Elf. Now I remember this additional information.
It took me a while to find this.
grava citajo means serious citation in Esperanto.
When the Pathfinders arrive at Bechimo, Theo gives them a bow and salute, and proceeds to tell them that the gathered horde of various intelligent Old Tech devices are saying “a universe ended recently.” Is this because they were shut down by some prior incarnation of the DOI as they came through from the Old Universe? Or are they referring to Ren Zel’s sealing off of the Old Universe? Or what? How did you all interpret it?
Definitely Ren Zel
I believe the Tree’s final strike *before* Ren Zel sealed breach–that roar of green-ness that blew through the universal divide–destroyed the old crystal universe. Like matter meeting anti-matter, the extreme life of the Tree versus a universe of “perfected” crystal, and boom.
Two reasons: First, the space surrounding Tocohol-Tinsori Light was described as clear. Formerly it was surrounded by pulverized, crystalline grit. Second, at least one of the Old Tech claimed to hear the death shrieks as the old universe died.
It’s not conclusive–the same data could support the theory that removing Tinsori Light’s link to the old universe simply made them separate and independent–but that’s my preferred explanation 🙂
As Bon Vit and Sye Mon discuss the debate among the Old Tech devices, Sye Mon mentions: The Old Universe was finite, so the texts tell us, and held within the mind of the Great Enemy.
Now that is new information to readers. What texts are these? Texts written by those who became the DOI? And what about “Held within the mind”?
Back in Crystal Dragon when Rool Tiazen is describing how they might escape the Old Universe, doesn’t he say that the zaliata and tumzaliat with their dominants who have rebelled against the sheriakas have created or can—on the coming wave of energy—create a sort of bubble universe?
Wouldn’t this mean that we actually still are “held within the mind of the Great Enemy”? Only we are sealed off from what surrounds us?
“Held within the mind” I think refers to the steady-state quality of the Old Universe–there was only so much, and all could be encompassed by the Iloheen.
I don’t think Rool was saying that they would create a new universe? As I understood it, they were going to an existing universe with worlds that could support Liadens. As for the Dominants, they did create a certain number of templates for them to fill in the new universe–well, for the Dominants and Lute.
I think that one nasty-poisonous Dominant–the one Rool bargained a tithe of his energy so she’d provide a distraction–intended to claim some part of the Old Universe, but I don’t know if she was successful. We do know she attacked the Enemy as the Migration took off…
Last, I think in this book we learned that while the Old Universe existed, and Tinsori Light existed, there was some… contamination, perhaps? The Old Tech devices still held to their directive to cause harm to organic life and those who stood against the Enemy, but they no longer received orders through the ether in the New Universe. Then when Ren Zel and Jelaza Kazone sealed the breach and destroyed the Old Universe, the Old Tech devices were released to choose their own paths.
So, no–I don’t think the New Universe was beholden to the Enemy’s design or direction before the Old Universe was destroyed.
It is in Crystal Soldier that Rool’s lady explains the plan using the term “bubble universe”: Our colleague Lute and his dominant have determined that it may be possible for them and for those dramliz of like mind, to insert themselves into the fabric of the universe as it decrystallizes and to exert their wills in such a way as to—form a bubble universe in which life might thrive, surrounded, yet apart from, the sheriekas eternity.
So, I guess my previous statement was correct, that is, we are sealed off from but still surrounded by, the Old Universe in its “perfection.”
If the new Universe is totally surrounded by the Old universe, we get a problem. Size. The old univers has a finite size. But the new universe keeps expanding. How? The bubble getting bigger would mean the old universe has to shrink. Or is it just that it seems that the bubble gets bigger because everything within is shrinking?
Instead of a bubble, literally, I would think it would be a different dimension. Something like the underside of space perhaps.
Or maybe both.
Apparently the idea that our universe is a bubble, is not limited to SciFi. Here’s just a bit of a quote from an article published in 2014, in something called EarthSky:The vacuum simmered with energy (variously called dark energy, vacuum energy, the inflation field, or the Higgs field). Like water in a pot, this high energy began to evaporate – bubbles formed . . . But here’s the thing: each of these bubbles was a universe.
After the Pathfinders join Bechimo, one of the transmissions that is intercepted says this: We heard the screams when the Old Universe died.
I am curious: who or what was screaming? The sheriekas? Maybe out of pure frustration at the closing off of the way between? The intelligent Old Tech entities that were left behind? The Old Universe itself? (what was left of it) Or what?
When Val Con warns Emissary Twelve about eating pods from the Jelaza Kazone, she responds: And yet you eat them; your kin have been eating gifts from the Elder Tree for nearly as long as the youngest of the current table of Elders has been alive.
Note that phrase “nearly as long” . . . does this indicate then, that the Clutch came from the Old Universe? Else how would they know how long it had been since Jela ate a pod?
(blah! All that ital—I wish this site had editing capabilities for commenters!)
I think the clutch may just have access to memories perhaps in a similar way to the Korval rememberers. Not that they are from the Old Universe. If so, they would have held back the schriekas like the Trees did.
The organic aspect of the Clutch is reminiscent of stories of the hallucinogenic ayuwasca. Perhaps by Emissary Twelve we will learn more about their way of processing the world.
The Pathfinders did not know about the Clutch when Emissary 12 came in to land.
… or was the Clutch already in the new/current universe ?
I don’t recall any text stating definitively that the new universe was empty of
Are we making false assumptions or jumping to conclusions ?
Possibly both, Terry . . . I just wanted to elicit responses/opinions from others.
When Claidyne is in her persona of The Commander, she says to Rys Lin: To disband the Department allows our interest, our resources, and our power to meld with the intent of the universe.
Really? The intent of *this* universe? Or does this show us that the DOI was still taking its orders from the Old Universe, in which apparently the intent of the sheriekas was part of the fabric of the universe? In which the “orders” were part of the fabric of the universe itself, as the devices have tried to explain?
Does anyone have an estimate of how much time elapsed during AtL ?
It seemed short to me.
That strikes me as the type of thing Othin would do, but I don’t know whether he’s still checking back to this board.
You are right that I’d be interested in this question. But the time question in AtL as well as the last few novels elude me. Too much estimation and jumping around.
My current estimate is not more than a reluma.
And for today’s comment:
Commander of Agents at Daglyte Seam thinks that Aberthaz Ferry has returned to “follow her bidding.” In her thoughts she identifies Ferry as the secret ship the DOI had discovered and nurtured, the brightest gem of all the Old Tech. . . . alive to understanding the proper order of the universe.
So, wait, a hero of the Old Universe, who—according to the Pathfinders—had smuggled troops and led an armada out of a time sink, all from under the eyes of the Enemy . . . this hero all this time in this universe has done the bidding of the DOI?
I am confused. Had Ferry been feigning obedience all this time? Had she been trapped by the remnant of orders from the Old Universe? She tells Bechimo, and Theo relays that very recently, [there has] been an alteration in the state of this—our—universe. This alteration has produced a realization: that choice is available to them [the Old Tech devices]. But isn’t this an inconsistency? Wasn’t she already a rebel in the Old Universe? How came she to be suffused with the purpose of the sheriekas and the DOI here, in this Universe?
And—in addition to the question I’ve posed above—Does Aberthaz Ferry chose not only to be a hero again, to eliminate the Commander who could have defeated their efforts to overcome the DOI, but also to take revenge on the one [not the exact same person, but the persona] who had somehow entrapped her will all this time?
Hero or double agent – I believe we don’t have enough data on Ferry to really understand her and her actions. I find Ferry and the story around her also confusing. What is hearsay and what is real?
Hmmm…well, we do know in the end she took a very powerful piece off the board. Even though the book title was put in the mouth of Emissary Twelve regarding what to us seems to be a minor issue, it was really Aberthaz Ferry who “accepted the lance,” in order to ensure the well-being of others—not just humans but other intelligent machines.
This conversation has motivated me to read ATL yet again. What catches my attention now is the idea that the Old Universe was held in the mind of the Enemy.
It is a somewhat Buddhist tinged concept that reality is an object within consciousness. Or a mystical view that all reality is like a bubble in a stream.
I gathered that the new universe had to be an expanding universe because of the new matter from the old universe was injected into the new. But it could be understood as expanding consciousness, expanding from new choices – the very creative impulse of Being itself.
Today we’ve reached my absolute favorite tidbit, an exchange between Bechimo and Theo. They are discussing Korval’s luck, and after Theo says the Luck “gambled a world—a whole system—on us” Bechimo disagrees, quite wordily.
Then Theo responds, and the exchange goes like this:
I think you’re playing semantics.
Perhaps,Bechimo said. Would you care to play again later?
Perhaps others could clarify one of Val Con’s comments for me?
He stays at Jelaza Kazone to be Korval that day, and asks Jeeves whether there’s any news. Jeeves informs him of the breakup of the assembled and tells him: Strategist yo’Vremil is meeting with Transitional Commander Claidyne. After which Val Con says He and Claidyne ought to deal extremely well, once he gets over his pique at having lost the tempo. [emphasis mine]
Is the word tempo merely supposed to evoke Val Con’s familiarity with musical rhythms? Does it indicate a position as Temporary Commander? Is it a typo (hello? Skip?)? What?
Tempo is a chess term that I think bled over into writing.
Steve Miller used to run chess tournaments.
Huh. Well, I definitely lost the tempo of the story when I came across the term used in this context.
I had to laugh at myself when two days later—during my re-reread of Trade Secret—I came across this exact use, although in the setting used it was a bit easier to apply the meaning.
Jethri is put on the spot by Grandma Doricky, and told to trade something of “no value” to the traders gathered at the opening of the Tradedesk complex. As he stands there trying to think of what to do, he thinks to himself: he’d better do something, now, or he’d lose the tempo. [emphasis mine] But in this case there *is* a tempo of trade (and performance) that has been well-established by the story, so the word slides by without calling attention to itself.
Whereas, I will say, I still find the usage in Accepting the Lance to be a bit jarring to my ear.
When Val Con communicates to Udari that the Elder Tree suggests that Rhys Lin be brought to it for aid in recovering, he tells Udari that the Elder Tree treasures a high opinion of itself. I’m sure it’s intended to be amusing that Udari comes back and says that the younger also harbors a high opinion of the elder.
It may be an obvious point, but it just registered for me also the significance of the fact that Udari could make this reply. He must have already been in communication with the younger tree, or—more to the point—has the younger tree already reached out to all the Bedel who are working at Yulie Shaper’s place? Apparently it cannot have offered pods to all, or the Elder Tree would not have crafted “test pods” for Udari to take to Droi.
I think the test pods were given to Droi for examination to see if they would
be compatible with the Bedel healing of Rhys.
Okay, then had Udari already eaten a pod from the younger Tree, do you think?
I am morally certain that the Bedel with Yulie have partaken of the younger trees pods.
Though I do not recall any text evidence.
What make this book a success for me is the quality, quantity and variety of characters, Miri & ValCon,Theo bechimo & crew, Daav ^ Aelli. Pit Rin Natesa an Cheever, the Bosses, Emmissary 12, TREEs, Bedel & Yulie, Jelaza Kazone staff, TerraTrade investigators, Ilithira Yo’Lana.I know I have missed some and please pardon my (mis)spelling.
Agreed that it was really fun to follow all these threads. For that very reason it is rich reading for those who have read everything that goes before, but would be quite tricky for someone who just picks this up as their first foray into the Liaden Universe.
The plot(s) might be possible to follow—although even I lost the thread a couple times with the Assembled and the Six of Us groupings—but it is exactly the multiplicity of characters that make it so rich for us, that would have completely done me in.
Will Theo and/or Nova be life-mated ?
I have no guesses. We have hints about Nova’s feelings, but whether there will be a life-mating remains to be seen
I would think Theo and Bechimo might find it challenging to incorporate another life-mating into theirs.
I agree Theo unlikely to lifemate. Nova though seems to be a potential character that we really haven’t seen much of. She’s always been a bit part (though important bits). Would be good to hear more about her.
Bechimo Theo & life-mate.
That would be a real challenge/adventure for OBA (our beloved authors) to deal with.
I am sure that they would be up to it and I know it would be a fun read.
Will it taste like butter?
If the authors want a challenge lifemating – that would be Lady Kareen. Not just because of her age but because she is so much complete as herself – something like that would force a major character development on her – and might have very astounding results.
Better than, but you won’t believe it’s not. 😉
But-her life-mate might taste it.
Change of topic:
“And—could it be our daughter? Isit Maysl?”
“It is, she said, feeling tears gather in her eyes and spill down her cheeks as she leaned forward to put their child in his arms.”
Hoo-boy! Speaking of our authors being up to the challenge . . . Which of us was not virtually—if not actually—in tears at this point? I was so glad they didn’t decide that Rhys had to be sacrificed! Of course it served to increase the tension for what would happen to Miri and/or Val Con after this!
Three structural changes I would like to see in the final version.
Chapter numbers, epigraphs and a character-ship-places list.
Agreed. It’s too late now, but all those changes would have made it easier to navigate after reading through.
There may be time to at least number the chapters.
I don’t think Sharon and/or Baen are still accepting comments, but I suppose you could try to contact someone.
I think I’ll wait and see how reader friendly they are.
The Trees: Jslaza, Kazone, Erob’s, Bechimo’s, Yulie’s.
In plan B it is implied that there are others. I’d like to know what happened to the two yos’Galan saplings on Surebleak. Were the destroyed during the attack by the DOI ?
There is a line in Shout of Honor a bout Surebleak
“It’s not like they have Clutch living on planet.”
What delightful fore shadowing.
Another fun little bit:
After a discussion on the possibility of having some time off together . . .
Miri grinned. “Maybe Cheever’d like to be Road Boss.”
Val Con inclined his head seriously. “Perhaps he would. We cannot know until we ask.”
“Well,” Miri said, “don’t ask him unless I’m there with you. I wanna see his face.”
Ed8r, you mentioned that the AI’s can’t partake of the Trees. Is it that they can’t eat the pods? Must they be organic? Could a cyborg partake of the tree?
Well first I should ask: What definition of cyborg are you using?
If this so-called cyborg were fitted with enough technology that artificial organs (such as stomach) absorbed nutrition/chemicals from the pod that were then actually routed by artificial blood to the artificial brain—then, yes, I guess so. But also it might need constant reapplication of the chemicals in order to sustain the initial delivery.
What do you think?
@Ed8r: I don’t have a definition of Cyborg, other than the Dosavi. I am thinking about Joyita. It seems that he will manage to come up with a body and still be an AI. If Joyita or Dosavi have human components, then creatures such as they would have the hardware, so to speak, to partake of the pods.
@Terry: Good thought about Bechimo connecting to the tree through Theo. Hmmm.
The scene I’d like to read is Theo communing closely with Bechimo and the Tree.
Would/could the Tree sense/commune with Bechimo via Theo?
Ooooh . . . . now *that’s* an interesting thought!
I’m sure Hevlin would be happy to poke his empathy in.
…and throw in Anthora, Ren Zel and the Clutch for good measure !
Whither Tarona Rusk ?
A great character I hope we read about again.
Didn’t it sound like she was staying to help set up the “new” DOI?
She left on a ‘sleek single-ship’.
Didn’t want the constraints of fitting in with the new regime.
She left on a ‘sleek single-ship’.
I was confused on this point. Perhaps it is my aging brain no longer able to nimbly follow the different changes in scene and the location, as identified in the chapter headings.
Does the reference to “former Commander” here refer to Tarona Rusk then, rather than the Commander who was granted her wish for perfection? I thought the “tall, unrepentant figure” they were seeing on the screens “walking down toward a sleek single ship” was the former Commander?
No, Tarona Rusk left the station on the single-ship when the Scouts moved in; as I recall, some wanted her to stay–the New Commander?–but was told that she had earned the right to be left to her own devices.
Tarona’s departure was watched openly, on the main dock, while the former Commander–the homicidal one–scurried away somewhat secretly to meet Ferry on “the Commander’s private dock.”
So they left more-or-less concurrently? No wonder I ended up confused.
Well, hopefully we will see more of her, especially since many of the dramliz apparently would like to continue with their connection to her.
I wonder if SL & SM read any of these posts.
I’ve been wondering that too, especially now while SL is confined to the “Command Chair.”
In the Epilogue, Lady yo’Lanna tells Melina Sherton that she has questions about a few of the house’s quirks. I wonder whether there are (I wish there were) untold stories about some quirks?
I think it will still be Clan Korval Tre and Dragon.
The addition of the Youlie+Bedel there may be a Tribe of the Tree …
… and perhaps others to join in the future.
The official release date for the book is Dec 3. So near to Christmas, it ends with (what I take to be) an allusion to Dickens’ Christmas Carol.
Instead of Tiny Tim saying “God bless us, every one” we end with Penn Calhoun giving a toast: good luck to us all—to all of us!
*and incidentally, the end of my comments on the Accepting the Lance
Concerning the disposition of Clan Korval.
Who has the jurisdiction and authority to judge them ?
@Linkmeister Aug 27: amazed and amused that so much happened before the Clutch ship even landed, given that Neogenesis ended with it hovering above the driveway where it was about to set down
I think we had forgotten how many other of the sequels seem to pick up—not where the previous left off—but repeating a good deal of the previous book, perhaps from a different viewpoint, perhaps not.
I have just reached Mouse and Dragon on my third reread and was surprised because I had forgotten that it began with a long segment embellished somewhat and also repeated from the end of Scout’s Progress.
Aren’t there others as well? I don’t remember them either.
So which of us is now doing another reread using our shiny new published version (hard copy, e-copy, or audible)?
Everyone come on over to the chapter-a-day discussion on the Reading Liad blog hosted by Paul A . . . the more the merrier (IMNSHO)!
URL for today’s post: https://pdprojects.info/liadread/2020/01/accepting-the-lance-chapter-49/