SPOILER Discussion Accepting the Lance

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68 comments to SPOILER Discussion Accepting the Lance

  • admin  says:

    Spoiler list Open for business.

  • Linkmeister  says:

    I was amazed and amused that so much happened before the Clutch ship even landed, given that Neogenesis ended with it hovering above the driveway where it was about to set down.

  • Elf  says:

    Aiiee! *dance of joy* [that’s my review!]

    I do wonder if Kezzi stayed. I think/hope so?

    In particular: I loved the AI Assembly; the Tree and the Emissary; Yulie’s story line. In future, I’m eager to see the Yxtrang ambassador on Surebleak! He’s another favorite, along with his Rifle.

    Hugs and kitty-nose-boops,

    • Beth Law  says:

      Everything what Elf says…

  • Framwockle  says:

    I really loved it. So many threads coming togetherness such a satisfying way. I must admit that I teared up a few times. Loved the cats! However I’m still wondering about the Xstrang ambassador and hoping we’ll see how that thread reaches its conclusion.

  • IreneHa  says:

    There I was on page 410 with only 5 pages left and “OH MY GOHD!!!”

    Oh thank heaven, this editions thinks I have another 25 pages to read.

  • Jenny  says:

    Also everything Elf said. I loved this book I had a few tears lots of smiles. The way all the threads are being woven together is wonderful. I am going to have to re-read at a slower pace especially the part about the DOI I did not really grasp who was doing what to whom. I think I need to refresh the names of the 6 from Surebleak and then were the scouts the Liaden scouts or Surebleak scouts. I am a little at sea it’s as tho I skipped a chapter LOL I will go back

    • Jenny  says:

      I have now discovered my confusion – I somehow skipped reading the first 3 chapters LOL

      • Jason  says:

        I was glad to see that my long suspected (long as in since Crystal Dragon long) thought that DoI was Enemy based was correct. Obviously not targeted at the new universe as such, but the Work adapted itself as needed.

  • gareth griffiths  says:

    Great read. Loved the phrase (hope I got it right) A Clutch turtle, a Liaden, and Terran went into a bar… Also still wondering about the YXTRANG ambassador – here’s a thought could part of that ‘old’ fleet revert to the troop.

  • Kathy Ferrando  says:

    Just read it and am a little bemused about who ordered the incidents at the end on Surebleak (which faction of the DOI.) may have read ittoo fast, will reread more slowly this weekend. Always appreciate and treasure these books..thank you!

    • Gareth Griffiths  says:

      I figured those had to have been already ordered by the old commander before the change of regime took place.

  • Bill  says:

    All that tech and the AI’s from the old universe and no Uncle johnny on the spot???

    • Skip  says:

      Good point

  • Karen2  says:

    Loved the book and the action on so many fronts. Theo is being forced to mature and she’s wearing it well. I’m already looking forward to the next book and am sure the authors just love that when ATL isn’t officially out yet.

    I do have one concern and wonder if I missed some clues. Did Nelirikk survive the attack on the Road Boss’s office ? Miri did call out his name after she’d been attacked and injured in the alley but I didn’t see any mention of him after that.

    • Karen2  says:

      Add a :-> or ;-> at the end of the first paragraph. I hope these come through as the other grin form didn’t !

    • Htet Htet  says:

      Nelirikk found her in the alley first I believe.

      • Jenny  says:

        I found this in “The Way Between”
        “Captain!” a big voice shouted, and there were other voices, too, and a siren, closing. “Captain!”“Nelirikk,” Miri whispered in his ear,

        • Karen2  says:

          Thank you both for these catches that I missed on my hurried way through. Nelirikk didn’t show up as part of Miri’s healing scenes and I missed any further references there might have been.

          I’m doing the slower read now and seeing things I *must* have read on the first pass but don’t remember.

  • Skip  says:

    I noticed just a few typos.

    I wondered about Nelirikk, too. He did call Miri’s name after she was shot, so I assumed he survived, but in the epilogue, it was Diglon who played chauffeur to yo’Lanna’s party. So…?

    I also wonder if Kezzi boarded the ship with Luthia, or stayed behind with Droi, Udari, Memit, Rafin, etc. I suspect she did go with Luthia, out of loyalty. Too bad…I liked her escapades with Syl Vor. I also suspect we will run into that Bedel ship again, especially given the questionable captain.

    And how perfect, that Rys is now the headman. He truly has a new clan!

    Clever, how it came to pass that Bechimo and crew found themselves in the right place at the right time when THE ASSEMBLY showed up in Surebleak outer space.

    The DOI ran on old Sherieka tech. No surprise there, but I’d like to know who was the first human instigator of DOI in this Liaden universe. Maybe the upcoming sequel to Trade Secret will offer a clue. I still think Lyre Institute uses a lot of similar tech and methods.

    Glad to see Theo and Bechimo maturing. Loved all scenes with Stost and Chernak. And Hevelin. And Tree. And Clutch.

    “I am called, for the purpose of this mission, Emissary Twelve.” .. We never got a name, which seems contrary to Clutch culture.

    TerraTrade rep Kasveini demanded KORVAL HIMSELF. Lol! Great scene! She looked, he thought, a little pale. She might even benefit from a cup of tea. Sadly, Korval Himself did not offer cups of tea to upstart Terrans who demanded that he justify clan business to them….Team Leader Kasveini was looking markedly unwell. Korval Himself naturally had no sympathy, though the Road Boss might have expressed concern.

    Well, now my curiosity is piqued. What did bring Portmaster Liu to Surebleak???

    I hope Shan comes home soon. I miss his interactions with the clan.

    I guess we’ll be seeing Yxtrang Ambassador Vepal in a future sequel or short story.

    The DOI came to an end. What about agents still out on missions?

    • Othin  says:

      Hi Skip,
      Clutch names seem to be descriptive – so Emissary Twelve might have more meaning that it looks at first glance. I took it to mean that this mission is the raison d’être for Emissary Twelve and properly a Life work. She is only just beginning to see what this Mission all includes – like making port rules for Clutch visits.

      @Portmaster Liu
      Yes me to. But wait, wasn’t there some talk between day – and night port masters when Pat Rin and the Counsil of Bosses went to port – way back when Plan B was active? But I don’t remember if the reasons of coming to Surebleak got mentioned.

      @DOI end.
      Val Con believed it to take quite a long time to shut down the Department. And even with the help of the Scouts (note it is just the Scouts, not the Liaden Scouts) this might take years or more properly even decades. How does on shut down the 3 remaining Commander-Down-Load Points? That assumes that the 1 Down-Load Point has been shut down by Aberthaz Ferry’ suicide.

      I’m afraid I don’t understand it. Can someone explain? Why did Aberthaz Ferry take the Commander with him? And why did he never stray form the topic of Perfection? Is perfection only reachable in death? In any death or must it be a special kind of death? Or was this something else?

      Is Aberthaz Ferry a hero or some kind of double agent? Did he ally with DoI in order to find the down-load-point? Or did he run into a trap?

      • Elf  says:

        Hi Othin:
        Regarding Aberthaz Ferry (which I’ll shorten to Ferry here, for ease): Ferry was dying due to rotting tile racks, and he was losing what remained of his logic/sanity–much like the others from the old universe, which recall: have 20 to 100 years left to them, and then the planned obsolescence. But Ferry was still sane enough, at the last.

        Ferry kept to his original task from the Old Universe: to destroy those Old Tech items inimical to life, by design of the Enemy. He told Bechimo that he would, as his last act, destroy the Recruiting Station (I take it this is the DOI Commander Download/Quaternary Transfer Point), and also remove the Commander herself from the board.

        Thus, Ferry picked up the (somewhat delusional/error-ridden) Commander, and enticed her with an offer of Perfection. All that talk about Perfection was to lull her, so that Ferry could take care of business.

        I will note: I was kind of confused about the “crystal fortress” Ferry jumped into–to destroy it–and I worried that was Tinsori Light; but I think it was in fact the Recruiting Station.

        Ferry’s death is rather sad, even in victory–I do wonder if Signeur Veeoni could have replaced his rotting tiles with the newly-manufactured sets she invented. Perhaps she can help some of the others?

        I hope this helps?

        • Othin  says:

          Hi Elf,
          yes, that is what ferry tells Bechimo, but I’m not sure that there isn’t some deper game hidden there. Especially since ferry seems to be the first AI and old technolgy that was in DoI hands.

          And yes, the cristal fortress description is so special, that I believe it would have been mentioned by our “3 of 6” (Rys and his companions) when they went to download the commander.

          And in the last describtions of the delusional commander she seems so “harmless” that it doesn’t seem necessary to remove her before Rys and company appear? Or do I miss something there?

          • Elf  says:

            Hey Othin: Yay, discussion! We shall reach consensus! 🙂

            I agree, there’s a lot of nuance in Liaden works, so, I wouldn’t be surprised to be wrong. But As for those of the Assembly that did the work of the DOI, I think they weren’t “twisted” like the biologics were–they did the work of the DOI because they were bored, in essence; work gave meaning. So I do think Ferry was its own person, free, and it went to dispose of the Commander/the Recruiting Station as its last act.

            As to the Commander–the Healers/Dramliza were keeping tight herd on her, so mostly harmless, yep. As to Ferry taking care of her, I think that was a matter of timing, and the fact that Ferry was not aware of The Six and their plans to dismantle DOI. So by the time Claidyne & Rys got to Secondary Headquarters, Ferry had picked her up and they were off to seek glory/perfection. At least, that’s what I got out of it.

            ~Cat smiles, all around! ~e

        • Ed8r  says:

          @Elf and Othin: RE: Perfection

          Neither of you mention how “perfection” as a concept is itself the dead Old (sheriekas) Universe that Cantra and others jumped out of. Could Ferry have somehow been able to jump back into that universe, thereby having not lied to the Commander about achieving perfection, but with the full understanding that perfection was going to be equivalent to annihilation?

          • Elf  says:

            Hi Ed8r:
            Ah, no? Ferry said he’d been hunting the Light, but he lacked the ability to fold space or travel to other universes–he’s referring to how Tinsori Light was, sometimes, in the Old Universe for long periods between “customers”.

            I’ve always thought of Perfection as a lie, frankly. It’s the hook for the Sheriekas to sway others to their cause, but they alone believe themselves to be “perfected.” For organic life, at the end of that Old Universe, well… Perfection meant death. So, you know, Ferry gave the Commander exactly what the Sheriekas promised to all organic life, in a way.

      • Gareth Griffiths  says:

        Someone shoud have introduced Aberathy Ferry to the Uncle or better to Seignour Veoini (probably spelled that wrong) who could maybe make new frames for the old intelligences. Perhaps that’s where Tinsori Light aka Tocohol will find most business. Shan to set up the ‘trade’

      • Skip  says:

        Thanks, Othin! You make some great points. Maybe Emissary Twelve has only begun to grow a name. And I guess I missed the bit where Val Con said it would take a long time to shut down DOI. Yes, that works fine, then.

        As for Ferry, I agree with Elf, below. She (he?) was a “brave little toaster” serving the Troop in the old world, thus speaking Old Yxtrang language, and thus Stost knew of him / her. Her last valiant act was to kill the Commander — who was not harmless but rather a stone-cold killer bent on the destruction of an entire clan (Korval) and the bombing of an entire planet — and to destroy the malignant recruiting station, via a suicidal jump. I thought it was a nice touch, to see the Yxtrang (Ferry AI Troop) as heroic again, so many centuries after dutiful Jela, Wellick, etc.

    • IreneHa  says:

      I think that there was a line about two Luthia’s staying behind. Droi was one & my assumption that Kezzi was the other. After all she didn’t want to leave her dog behind.
      Must re-read.

    • Karen2  says:


      “The DOI ran on old Sherieka tech. No surprise there, but I’d like to know who was the first human instigator of DOI in this Liaden universe. Maybe the upcoming sequel to Trade Secret will offer a clue. I still think Lyre Institute uses a lot of similar tech and methods.”

      Wasn’t it mentioned in a previous book that the Lyre Institute is the successor to the Tanjalyr (sp) Institute that Cantra “graduated” – in a manner of speaking – from ?

      I come down on the Kezzi stayed on Surebleak side. Between losing her dog, and a life with way more choices I’m thinking she opted to stay. Then there’s Syl Vor’s friendship. That came about somewhat because she was the youngest of the on-planet Bedel. Silvain has to go but given how new Luthia’s are chosen on the Ship she might have wanted to spare Kezzi from a process with no guarantees. Would the Surebleak Bedel remain a ‘tribe’ on the Ship or become Bedel of the Ship ?

      • Skip  says:

        Karen2 — Yes, it’s been stated in Dragon in Exile that Lyre is possibly/probably the new name for Tanjalyre, but I think Tanjalyre could have been built on Sherieka Tech in Old Universe. Very similar devices, psychopathies, and methods.
        As for Kezzi, I hope you’re right!

    • Ed8r  says:

      So did you submit typos to Sharon? I’m such a compulsive editor that I did send her some, not realizing that her crew of “Mighty Tyop Hunters” actually get a mention in the final printing.

  • Barbie  says:

    I believe Kezzi stays. Silain says as much to Kareem. ““One I trained myself,” Silain assured her. “She is very strong, and her Sight is sharp. But she is young. Until she outgrows that fault, she will from time to time need you.”

    • gareth griffiths  says:

      That surely would be Droi.

    • Ohtin  says:

      This could refere to Droi as well as to Kezzi. Properly it fits Droi better than Kezzi, since we have never seen Lady Kareen meeting Kezzi.

  • Elaine Morton  says:

    I’m also wondering about Kezzie. Quote above told me Kezzie would stay, then Droi was Luthia to those who stayed. So Kezzie’s location is unknown. I’m in agreement with those who’ve already commented. Also concerned about Anthora and RenZel. How have they been affected by their adventures. They’ve been at Healers Hall a long time. L

    • Othin  says:

      Kezzi’s location is told on purpose. The authors might noch have decided jet on when and how the Ship Bedel will come into play again. So Kezzi’s location gives options – depending weather it is the Sintia-Kezzi or the Sil Vor-Kezzi connetion they want to use.

      • Skip  says:

        @Othin: Yes, that may be so about keeping Kezzi’s location uncertain. Indefinite plot threads allow for more flexibility and thus creativity going forward. That’s assuming the authors intended to be obscure on that point and I didn’t miss some key sentences.

      • Ed8r  says:

        Othin, remind me what the Sintia-Kezzi connection is?

  • Terry  says:

    IMHO Bechimo needs, at some point, a Trader on board.

    • Ed8r  says:

      Yes, but hasn’t Theo been trained as a Trader, herself?

      • Elf  says:

        Hi Ed8r:
        Theo is not a trader, nor trained as a trader. Her secondary training was entirely pilot-related at Anglinden Academy [sp, sorry]. She only went a “trading loop” by Shan’s suggestion as a… probationary? period, to help Bechimo get used to people, too, I think; Shan suggested this loop, and contracted Theo, as a way to keep a “hook” on her, so she’d come back to Korval now and then. Sorry again! That’s a lot of words to say: Nope.

        She notes in this book that she probably should look into getting a trader on-board; that’s before she’s sent by contract to the Light.

        Hope this helps!

  • Ed8r  says:

    My favorite part *might* be all the cats, and especially that all the cats are an active ingredient of necessary healing towards the end!

    Threads are coming together even as many others have been left hanging for future books or stories. Thankfully we know that there are plans for at least 5 more books so for our sake and theirs, we pray the authors remain healthy and happy.

    You mentioned tyops…er, typos…above, so I hope you noted them and can send your list to Sharon (she requests them in a post on her blog. BUT only through Monday, 9/2).

    • Skip  says:

      Ed8r — I guess I’m too late for that typo deadline, but there weren’t very many, and doubtless someone else caught them.

      • Ed8r  says:

        No, no, not too late…yet. I gave the wrong date! The deadline is today at 6:00 Pacific Time.

  • Linda Shoun  says:

    IN the chapter in which the Clutch ship has just landed in the driveway, Miri has this reflection on its size:
    “It sat, steaming gently, on the driveway. Not much bigger, Miri thought, than the forty-eight-seat touring bus mothballed in the garage.”

    I thought I clearly remembered that the forty-eight-seat touring bus drove away with its passengers, startled but intact, after the Tree threw a branch at it.

    Does anyone recall the forty-eight-seat touring bus being mentioned again? How did it end up in Jelaza Kazone’s garage? Or is it there at Jelaza Kazone? Perhaps in a garage in the city, or at the Port?

    I am bumfuzzled.

    • Ed8r  says:

      I had a momentary question about this in my mind also. I don’t think we’ve been told anything about Korval claiming the bus/?

    • Skip  says:

      @Passenger Bus — I think the bus has been with Korval since before the move from Liad. The wealthiest clan on Liad would surely have their own bus. Lol. But such a big bus for such a small clan. Perhaps there’s a short story there.

      @Trader for Bechimo — if Theo is the trader for Bechimo, she could use some more training, I’m thinking. If she mostly trades with other AI smart ships, that’s a whole new game. So either way…

  • Terry  says:

    Been re-reading.
    Theo thought about the need for a trader in Dragon in Exile
    I am hoping for, Padi, or a Tiazan, or a Jonz from Due diligence family.

    Love the accrual of crew by Bechimo et al over several books.

    Veeoni (sp.) fraction replacements for the ‘old-tech’ ships extant ?

    • Ed8r  says:

      RE: Veeoni’s work. I believe she’d have to create what the Old Tech needed, as she did for Tinsori Light, i.e., it would have to be designed for each, but she had figured out *how* to create them.

  • Ed8r  says:

    There are so many little bits that either tickled my funny bone, or caught my attention…that is in addition to the stand out (IMNSHO) noted above by gareth griffiths on Aug 29.

    So, here’s another one, which appears in the Portmaster’s thoughts about Theo, but is a description of how Pat Rin handles his annoyance: “a toxic increase in irony levels”…ha! Toxic, indeed!

  • Thomas Bryson  says:
  • Thomas Bryson  says:

    The DOI has been the antagonist since Agent of Change. The Lyre Institute is poised to take the role. With their interest in Tinsori Light, Bechimo and Spiral Dance with its military armament will be on the front.
    Surebleak has made great strides with governance, education, climate adjustment. Will there be a forest of trees in the Bedel settlement?
    What will the partnership with Uncle look like?
    When will Joyita get a form factor as nice as Toohl has?
    How about those personalitites in the library on Bechimo?
    Will the trader to come on Bechimo work with the Carresens?
    Will Hevelin go into the remastering unit on Bechimo?

    • Ed8r  says:

      The goals of the Lyre Institute seem to be manipulation and domination, rather than the “perfection” to be achieved by total annihilation of all life. It needs to be dismantled, not left to itself as it seems it has been for a thousand years.

      By “forest of trees” I presume you mean a forest of sussdriad/?

      Hevelin in the remastering unit? Whatever for?

      • Thomas  says:

        If Hevelin doesn‘t recover from his wounds, but presumably the tree will heal him?
        Yes, those Trees.

        • Ed8r  says:

          Got it . . . yes, I assumed from the Tree’s request to place Hevelin at its base, that probably its pods will eventually restore Hevelin to his former murbling self.

  • Othin  says:

    @the Bedel
    I somehow understood Chafurma to mean a time of people coming together. But instead it’s a time where the Bedel collect (gather) artefacts. Hm, that makes much more sense. And Lady Kareen’s question if what the Bedel leave behind is as important as what they take with them – that’s interesting.

    I somehow don’t believe that those Bedel staying on Surebleak will suffer the fate that Alosha feared for the Bedel when he believed the ship to be lost to them. Dori’s group won’t dissolve into the main Surebleak population, no matter if one counts 2 or 20 generations.

  • Ed8r  says:

    Othin, you mean Droi, right?

    The Bedel won’t dissolve into the Surebleak population, per se, but I’m betting they join Korval eventually. The Elder Tree is already working on expanding Korval by granting Yulie Shaper first pods and then a branch of itself, and now Yulie will be Bedel-by-marriage. And the new headman, Rys, has already consumed pods from the ELder Tree and is also brother to Val Con. Isn’t all this leading inexorably to the Bedel joining with Korval?

  • Othin  says:

    Hi Ed8r, that was always a clear properbilty since Silver found a sister 🙂 and yes I keep misreading names to make them more familiar. So Droi not Dori. This “marriage” of the Surelbeak Bedel and Korval sets up expert pilots in to be honorbound to help the ship Bedel when they meet their problem again.

    • Ed8r  says:

      Good point! I was trying to think how the Bedel ship might be tied in again later, and I think you’ve got it!

  • Ed8r  says:

    What about this tea “Bitter Truth”? Is this truly tea?

    Do we assume “Morning Sunrise” is a true “tea” (Camellia sinensis)? Or is it an herbal tea? Has anyone asked the authors what their intention is?

    And while we’re on the topic (more or less) what about the “maize buttons”? Obviously they’re made of corn…and from the description, they’re made of corn meal. But are they based on something people bake in the RW? If so, what are they called in English, if it can be told?

    • Othin  says:

      Chronologically, I believe, the tea “Morning Sunrise” is first mentioned in Certain Symmetry when Pat Rin has to balance Fal Den ter’Antod’s debt book. And yes, I do think it is a true tea.

      In Real Life there are several different teas called Morning Sunrise.

      One of them is flavored black tea, tasting of quince and wild blackthorn.
      Ingredients: black tea, aroma, red rosebuds, rose petals, safflower flowers.

      Another is the English breakfast tea Morning Sunrise No. 135, a blend of Assam, Ceylon und Kenia tea.

      And Bitter Truth is a cocktail.

    • Othin  says:
      • Ed8r  says:

        Did you have an additional comment?

  • Terry  says:

    Other people I’d like to see or hear about
    Beba the rug seller from Persistence
    Alys Tiazan from Plan B
    Shidi and Mik yos’Galan
    This is some of the overflow from my re-reading, I guess.

  • Terry  says:

    Drat !
    The tea mentioned in Scout’s Progress is Joyful Sunrise.
    I also liked Grey Pearl alluding to Earl Grey.

  • Thomas  says:

    My understanding is that now Tinsori Light will be able to move through space. Does that match the understanding of other fellow travellers?

    • Ed8r  says:

      @Thomas: I don’t remember that from Neogenesis; I’d have to go back and read it again, but I was left only with the impression that it could now sit still where it was supposed to be in our universe.

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